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This is a good subject to consider!

As I have watched, listened and participated in discussions regarding the truth, especially Biblical truth, I have noticed the following. Most of these conversations are actually about religion. If one person speaks of genuine Truth, the other speaks of religion. Thus, both participants talk past each other, as they are conversing about two distinctly different subjects. Such a conversation is in conflict regardless of the content. It is important when speaking the truth in love to discern how the audience interprets what is said - they may need to remove their "religious eye-glasses".

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Great suggestion Keith. If you have a successful road map for doing this, I’d love to hear it.

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Sounds like the subject for another essay!!!

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However, you seem to want to be the one or one of the ones to determine what Jesus Christ defines for us to believe and how to conduct ourselves. Who are you to do that? What makes you so special? Why is your interpretation or belief superior to mine? It is not. I am not a corporation nor have I quoted a corporation. Jim asked me questions about my own Church so I answered them in which I explained that the UCC is not dogmatic about beliefs. You want to pretend that somehow you are above religion because apparently you do not belong to or participate in a church, I gather? However, the Church for me is more a place of community and care and spirituality and as I also explained already, individual churches in the UCC are independent regarding our beliefs so it is not akin to a corporation but more like a support network. In any case, you are not some special believer with some special insight into God and Jesus and the Bible. You are just an ordinary person with your own beliefs which by all your accounts appear to be those of a Christian Fundamentalist. So you do you but I, in fact, do believe that God cares very much that Fundamentalists have hijacked Christianity for their own purposes…That of controlling those that are different. 😢

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Christianity is a religion based upon the teachings AND person, Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices. That is very different than being based ONLY on Jesus’s words.

When I speak of Fundamentalism, I am speaking of Christian Fundamentalism which is the belief in the infallibility and inerrancy of the Bible.

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That is only if you interpret the Bible literally to begin with, Jim which the UCC does not and I do not. It is not possible to do so anyway due to all the contradictions. So you cherry pick what you want to take literally and what you don’t or perhaps a better way to put it is that you cherry pick which side of a contradiction to believe. Also, because the words of the Bible have been written differently in different versions and translations throughout the years and some books were even left out of the Bible, and because it is humans doing the reading of it, there is no such thing as an absolute literal reading. It is all open for interpretation.

So, to me, a Christian is someone who follows Jesus as their primary example of how to live a loving life, participates in many of the Christian traditions, and has some level of faith in the connection between Jesus and God. However, it does not have to be unquestioning and absolute. And many people who do not have any such faith lead equally loving lives and are equally valued by God. I believe we each can have our own relationship with God or not and it does not change his or her love for us and neither you nor anyone else gets to judge that relationship or lack of it nor do you get to try and manipulate or control how others live their lives.

I also do not believe that God is all about being worshipped by people and will only, “save,” those that do so…What a cruel and unloving God that would be! You see, Jim, you grew up in the Catholic Church that also believes this but I did not and do not. I grew up in the much more mentally and spiritually healthier Congregational/United Church of Christ and I am ever so thankful for that. God is still talking to us, Jim and our interpretation of the Bible , a book written 2000 years ago and more by mere mortals, some of it at a time when slavery and the subjugation of women were acceptable needs to be looked at from the perspective of our times. It is also necessary to remember that much of it is written in parables…Again not even intended for literal translation. The UCC statement of faith actually leaves much room for interpretation. It is your personal bias that believes it can only be interpreted the way you want it to be. What is more important anyway, is the fact that our Church allows for and encourages differences of opinion about faith….Such a healthy concept…As is the understanding that theology and interpretation of the Bible is a living and evolving concept.

Jesus Christ may be A way to truth and life but not necessarily the only way. Proverbs is from the Old Testament which doesn’t hold much meaning for me. And again, Jesus’s words were written down hundreds years after he lived…We don’t know if they are accurate or if he were speaking to the entire world or just to the people of Palestine. There is so much we don’t know. What we do know is that there were other prophets in other parts of the world that spoke to other people’s who inspired equally devout faiths in God. Who are YOU to judge those people? Why do want to? Why do you have such a need to be right? Why do you have such a need for there to be just one way? It is so terribly stifling. Anyway, you have no ability to interfere in my personal relationship with God nor with anyone else’s. But you do have the right to vote for Draconian backward measures and that is concerning.

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This conversation is unhealthy and repetitive so I am moving on.

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It is called separation of church and state. You believe the Bible is true but not everyone does. When government posts Bibical passages then it is essentially promoting those passages and promoting the Bible as truth and that is what is offensive to non believers. You speak of being inclusive of all truths. However, religious beliefs are not truths but faiths. However, if you want to go with the idea of inclusivity, then I presume you are okay with the govt., in addition to posting Bibical passages, also posting passages from the Koran, statements of Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan, the Ku Klux Klan and even Satanist beliefs. You see? To truly be inclusive of all, “truths,” as you call these faiths, that is what the govt. would need to do.

You state that American history is intertwined with the Bible. Actually the Bible has absolutely nothing to do with American history. I think what you meant to say was that some Americans in American history have been Christians. Of course some have been Atheists and Agnostics and Jewish and Islamic, etc. etc.

As far as erasing history, yes that is a concern where states and governors like Florida and Ron DeSantis are blocking the teaching of the truth about slavery and all those places that are trying to ban books which are, after all, only words, right?

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Your response is an illustration of another source of conflict - vastly different world views. I speculate that your world view does not accommodate the existence of "absolutes" - at least it is not friendly to the concept. I do admire the fact that you took the time to read the essay, and to respond to it.

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I appreciate your polite response. I do believe there are some absolutes such as the fact that the earth revolves around the sun and other long determined well established scientific facts. Some scientific knowledge, obviously, continues to evolve.

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I should add that I find that this need for a belief in religious or Bibical absolutes in others to really be a need in them to have a specific set of rules to follow because it brings about a sense of security. I find that such people want to bring other people into this fold because they also like group think, again out of the sense of security it brings. Such folks really dislike thinking for themselves and dealing with all the complexities and subtleties and differences amongst people in life. They long for sameness and specific roles for everyone. However, they don’t just want that for themselves but for everybody else in a world of 8 or 9 billion people as well. They want to pigeon hole everyone because differences make them uncomfortable. They don’t like the challenges of learning to accommodate and include differences even if and when they are discomfiting. And thus they are attracted to Fundamentalism. It has nothing to do with having some greater faith or understanding or relationship with God. In fact, I would venture to say, they have a lesser understanding of Jesus as they cherry pick single passages or sentences here or there, many from the Old Testament to pronounce what is fundamentally right or wrong or expected by God, rather than taking in the spirit of the totality of the Bible, particularly the New Testament and thinking about what Jesus would do in all situations. Jesus, a man of color, frankly was a flaming liberal, something that seems to escape most conservatives, who make up the bulk of the Fundamentalists. Also, Fundamentalists ignore the fact that much of the New Testament was written hundreds of years after Jesus had died and has its own contradictions. And if you believe in the infallacy of the Old Testament, you believe in slavery and the subjugation of women. Good luck with that.

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You paint with a broad judgmental brush. It is a regurgitation of what "authoritative academia" propounds. Again, if things are as you say they are, then why be so concerned? That is a rhetorical question, no need to answer. Often, those with a strong negative visceral reaction to the Truth eventually become very strong in the Truth that they opposed.

Keep thinking, keep observing. You will get there.

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Profound Keith!

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There is no such thing as , “authoritative academia.” Academia is quite the opposite from being authoritative. Academia rather continually asks questions and relies on reason.

Why I am concerned is not a rhetorical question but instead an important one which I wish to answer. I am concerned because Fundamentalists seem to want to control the rest of us and our choices and how we live, etc. They want to pass laws that control us and hurt us.

Remember when you speak of this capitalized Truth, it is really only what little ole you believes is the truth. It is not the Truth.

It may surprise you, or not, to know that I am a Christian, and just recently finished my term as president of my Congregational Church (United Church of Christ) and so I do have faith of my own but it is not the arrogant know it all faith of the Fundamentalists. Although there a number of Fundamentalists in my life whom I love very much, I find their beliefs and desires to tell everyone else what is True and their desires and even attempts to control everyone else’s ways of being and living, disturbing and very sad. It fills me with grief. However, I continue to be in relation with them and find other avenues through which to relate with them.

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Marianne, is Jesus Christ the Way, the Truth, and the Life? Meaning, is He the only way to heaven or are there others?

Moreover, please define what a Christian is? (You and I have ALSO discussed this in the past and your answers were inclusive of other "paths" to God. Please correct me if i am in error as to what you said.)

The United Church of Christ statement of faith (your church) includes the belief: In Jesus Christ, the man of Nazareth, our crucified and risen Savior, you have come to us and shared our common lot, conquering sin and death and reconciling the world to yourself.

This statement leaves zero room for alternate methods of salvation.

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United Church of Christ Beliefs: An Evolving Theology

The church says, 'God is still speaking'

The United Church of Christ's acceptance of diversity and evolving theology has made it one of the most progressive and polemic faith movements in existence today. The denomination gives autonomy to its local churches, many of which are controversial.

This inclusive and liberal denomination broke ground with an early stand against slavery (1700), the first ordained African American (1785), the first ordained woman (1853), and was the first to ordain openly gay, lesbian, transgendered, and bisexual persons (1972).

United Church of Christ Beliefs

Baptism: Baptism is the church community's promise of "love, support, and care." United Church of Christ (UCC) churches baptize infants brought by parents, or adults, when they are received into membership.

Bible: The Bible is used for inspiration, guidance, and for preaching. Members are not required to believe literally any version of Scripture.

Communion: All people of faith are invited to participate in the sacrament of communion. The act is seen as a reminder of the cost of Christ's sacrifice. Communion is celebrated as a mystery, honoring Christ and those who have died in his faith.

Creed: The UCC does not require its congregations or members to follow a creed. The only profession necessary is love.

Equality: There is no discrimination of any type in United Church of Christ beliefs.

Heaven and Hell: Many members do not believe in specific places of eternal reward or punishment, but do believe God gives believers eternal life.

Jesus Christ: Jesus Christ is recognized as fully human and fully God, Son of the Creator, Savior, and Head of the Church.

Prophecy: United Church of Christ beliefs call the UCC to be a prophetic church. Many of the church's positions call for the same treatment of people as did the prophets and apostles.

Sin: According to the UCC, sin is "opposition or indifference to the will of God."

Trinity: The UCC believes in the Triune God: Creator, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

God's Revelation: The United Church of Christ sets itself apart from other Christian denominations with its emphasis on the belief that God still speaks to his followers today. New light and understanding are constantly being revealed through interpretation of the Bible, says the United Church of Christ.

United Church of Christ Practices

The UCC celebrates two sacraments: Baptism and Holy Communion or the Lord's Supper. The website states, "Sacraments are our ritual acts in worship life when the Holy Spirit uses water, bread, and wine to make visible the grace, forgiveness, and presence of God in Christ."

Sacraments: Congregations conduct baptism during worship services when the community is present. Sprinkling is the usual practice, although some congregations use immersion. Communion elements are usually brought to members in their pews.

Worship Service: United Church of Christ beliefs account for wide diversity in services. Local needs and traditions usually dictate worship styles and music. While no single liturgy is imposed, a typical Sunday service includes a sermon, adoration of God, general confession of sins, an assurance of forgiveness, prayers or songs of thanksgiving, and members dedicating themselves to God's will.

All members of the UCC are equals as the priesthood of believers, and though ordained ministers have special training, they are considered servants. Individuals are free to live and believe based on their interpretation of God's will for their lives.

UCC stresses unity within the church and a unifying spirit to heal divisions. It seeks unity in essentials but allows for diversity in nonessentials, with a charitable attitude toward disagreement. The unity of the church is a gift from God, UCC teaches, yet diversity is to be accepted with love.

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Your sentiments are familiar to me - my mother's concerns were similar.

Again, we are talking about two different things. What I write about, the Truth, has NOTHING to do with "Fundamentalism" or "controlling people". It has NOTHING to do with authoritative academia (who are using the same techniques as the religious that concern you). I have no interest in those organizations or systems - there is no place for the Truth in them.

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As I have already stated, there is no such thing as, “authoritative academia.” This is a made up term. And your belief in the supposed Truth has everything to do with Fundamentalism. It is Fundamentalism. It is what you base your beliefs on. You are deluding yourself if you think your beliefs are somehow special and different. They are not. Unless you are saying that you are not Christian and you do not believe in the Bible and do not believe in its inerrancy and do not believe in its absolutism and that this Truth you speak of has nothing to do with God or Christ but with perhaps, I don’t know, crystals?

But if you do believe that there is absolutely only one possible Trurh and it is based in on the Bible and God and the Inerrancy of the Bible, then you are a Fundamentalist. If you are Christian Bur acknowledge that the Bible is not to be taken literally, then you must also acknowledge that it is then open for interpretation and therefore you cannot lay claim to any absolute Truth.

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