The place I always struggle with this is: How do we show God's love and grace to this group of people without implying that we support their ideas? From their perspective (at least it seems to me), if we don't accept and affirm what they believe, then we are intolerant and judgmental. This pushes them away from God. That's the last thing I want. Yet for many Christians, including me, any effort I make to stand up against the LGBTQ movement is simply from a place of compassion. I recognize that I am a sinner saved by grace, and I have no moral high ground to stand on other than the work that Jesus has done on the cross on my behalf. But he did that for them too, if they choose it. So I am no better than they are because I accept the gender God has given me, and they are not worse because they want to be a different gender. We just struggle with different sins and mental/emotional difficulties. And we can both be saved by God's grace. But yes, if you want to follow God, then you have to turn from your sin, and that includes anything that falls in the LGBTQ realm, as much as they don't want to accept that.
Great question Karen. Wish I had a good answer. I believe we have to always speak the Truth in love, being ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within us. But we should avoid going on the offensive. Likewise, inviting unsaved folks into our world, our church, our home over time gives us the right through relationship to speak into each others lives. With complete strangers this is impossible and will likely lead to discord. Even so, we have the right and responsibility to stand for truth in the public marketplace of ideas. Hopefully with gentleness and respect. Ultimately it is the Holy Spirit who changes hearts and minds. We are merely seed planters. If they find Him, He will lead them to Truth infinitely better than we ever could.
Jim, there really aren’t that many questions and I think you are capable of putting ones together that make sense to you to answer together or go ahead and start with the first question and answer them one at a time in separate posts if you find that easier. But I don’t see the point of going back and forth on each question rather than having you just go ahead and address the follow up questions as well, which would give a more thorough picture of your views. And then if I have further questions I could ask. Or on second thought, perhaps you are right and if you really would prefer to do it the way you asked, that is fine, but perhaps should wait for another day as I am getting tired tonight and have a few things to do before heading to my Aunt Lucy’s 90th Birthday Party tomorrow!!!!
Since we have devolved into a great many issues, I would rather stick to one at a time if you don’t mind. Since you say they’re aren’t many questions then we should be able to keep it simple and start with any one you choose. My original post was concerning Zygotes and devolved from there so perhaps that is the place to start. Unfortunately we do but have a common frame of reference for truth so this may become enormously difficult very quickly. 🤔
A long essay could be written, but I just want to comment…(this isn't a criticism!)
When a narrative expresses ideas that are completely foolish and insane, understand that there is something completely different going on. The purpose of the insane gender identity narratives is a component part of a much larger campaign, which is part of a larger war.
For ourselves we must negate the ideas presented by the foolish narratives. It is futile to fully engage with these narratives as they are flaming arrows sent to bring confusion and division.
The objective of the larger campaign is to demoralize the population and inflict them with "learned helplessness". This helplessness must be so overwhelming that it overcomes the natural instincts to nurture and protect their children. The family unit of parents and children is targeted for destruction, but even this is not the main target of the war.
The main target of the war is the TRUTH of God and His Word, which lives in the minds of the believers. That makes us targets as well. The objective is to eliminate all believers and potential believers from the earth. These actual objectives are hidden by the insane, foolish, irrelevant narratives which are loudly promoted by corrupt segments of this society.
Ironically posts of this nature have the highest view count as folks seem to be drawn to controversial issues. So long as the solution leads them to Christ I suppose a brief, healthy debate could be beneficial.
Yes. Many hearts are troubled right now. We are all afflicted by the persecution from the world & the saved and unsaved alike are searching for answers. As God awakens more and more people, they can begin to take their place in standing against the enemy.
Thanks, Jim. Crazy stuff going on. Before being transformed into the Life of Christ, the flesh masters the soul and spirit. It literally is the identity of the unsaved individual. No clever form of self-management can change or reform this positional condition. It is a death sentence that will occur unless one receives new Life in Jesus Christ. After someone receives the Life of Christ from within, their old spirit (Adamic nature) is replaced with the Nature of Christ – they receive a new Spirit, the Holy Spirit. At the moment of this experience, the Spirit becomes active in renewing the soul, the mind of the new convert. However, the sarx, or flesh, is not renewed. Nor will it. That is until the authentic believer is given a new sarx, body, on Heaven’s side. It replicates the “why” the old earth must be destroyed. This prophetic action must occur to have the Lord usher in the New Heaven and Earth. What is born of the earth, must die of the earth.
The problem is that there are in fact people born with different mixes of chromosomes than XY and XX….There are XXY and XYY and people with other combinations and these folks often have a mix of genitals…For example, they may have female genitalia but no uterus or male genitals and a uterus. Granted these folks are rare but regardless it shows that there are indeed non-binary people and at some point they are either going to make a choice and have surgery or they are going to remain non binary. Apparently there is scientific evidence of this being the case hormonally as well in some folks even if born with uniform body parts. It does make me wonder in those cases if it wouldn’t be more sensible then to match the hormone treatment with the body parts rather than have surgery to match the body with the hormones but I don’t feel like I necessarily know what is best for others. It does make me uncomfortable to think that in some cases though it probably is psychological and that puberty has always been a difficult age that some may be simply trying to escape…Particularly perhaps girls wanting to escape the unwanted attention that comes with development. And I wonder if we shouldn’t be helping girls feel more comfortable and confident in their own skin instead. But again, I don’t feel I necessarily have the answers. I am definitely bothered by trans girls competing against cis girls in sports…I cannot help but feel this is inherently unfair and that when it comes to women’s rooms and locker rooms and other safe spaces for women, that these are potentially being taken from us. I just had my first experience with a coed public restroom in South Carolina of all places! The individual stalls were actual separate rooms in that they had floor to ceiling walls but they shared the main room, sink and mirror area and even that was weird…No more changing one’s shirt or putting on make up in the, “Ladies’ Room,” I guess!
Hi Marianne. Yes XXY is known as Klinefelter syndrome. A genetic condition in which a male is born with an extra copy of the X chromosome. Opposite for the female. XYY syndrome is associated with an increased risk of learning disabilities and delayed development of speech and language skills. They are both very rare. These folks are biologically non-binary at birth, not by choice.
I’m really talking about folks who are clearly born either male of female and surgically alter themselves by choice. There is nothing natural about this, especially for a binary 14+ year old. These “choice” incidents are much, much more common than those born XXY.
Biblically speaking, there are only two genders as God designed them. After the fall (Genesis 3) sin and disease entered the world as did things like birth defects and such. So we must be careful as Christians not to promote unnatural, unneeded surgery, especially to 14 year olds. Anyone over the age of consent can do whatever they want to their bodies, but they would be in error to call in natural as explained above.
I do appreciate your comments Marianne. Conversation promotes thought which can be a good thing.
Yes, the alternate chromosome situations are rare. However, as I mentioned gender dysmorphia can apparently also be induced by homonal biological influences on the brain in uteri just as homosexuality is…It is not all psychological…And apparently those who are not accepted as who they believe themselves to be and given the option of surgery are much more in danger of committing suicide due to their misery which I find very concerning.
And why would a loving God inflict disease and birth defects upon innocent babies and people and yet not on others, innocent and the not always so innocent? How cruel is that?
Marianne, I apologize for I have strayed far from my original point which was quite simply, that a human Zygote is either male or female (or XXY in rare cases as agreed). In any case we are still talking about male or female human being in the womb from conception. Therefore when a woman decides to have an unnecessary abortion she should ask: Am I killing a boy or a girl? That should make it personal, at the very least generically accurate. If a mother’s conscience is clear on this, then I suppose that’s ultimately between them and the Lord.
In my view, an unnecessary abortion is certainly one where the life of the mother is at risk and other rare medical conditions, and also forced rape where the choice was not optional.
Remember the question girls: Am I killing a baby boy or a girl?
I think you meant that in your view a necessary (not unnecessary…typo on your part I think) abortion is when the life of the mother is at risk or in cases of, “forced,” rape where the choice was not optional. While I appreciate you concern for the life of the mother, what about her health? She could end up with serious physical health concerns, sometimes reproductive health, issues and/or sometimes emotional health concerns. These matters can deeply negatively affect her life as well as potentially a child’s regarding care, mental health, physical health, financial well being, etc. or she may end up not ever being able to have a viable child if not allowed to abort an ongoing dangerous pregnancy. And why do you speak of, “rare,” medical conditions? Medical complications with pregnancy and childbirth are not rare, Jim…What makes you think they are? To start with, 1 out of 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage which is a risky complication in and of itself, especially the further along the pregnancy, due to the danger of bleeding out. And yet, doctors and hospitals in states that have banned most abortions are afraid to give treatment for these miscarriages (Ordinarily a D and C or a Dilatation and Cutterege which safely cleans out tissue and blood clots) risking hemorrhaging and sepsis (potentially fatal blood infections). Women are also being neglected when they are not necessarily miscarrying yet but it is known the fetus has died or her water has broken too early but there is still a heartbeat (just a couple of examples) and the medical community waits for the women to go into septic shock/begin dying before they will abort out of fear of legal trouble, even though such a fetus cannot possibly be born alive! This is what happens when medical decisions are not left up to the medical experts and the patients, and instead are made by ignorant legislators trying to control other people and things they do not understand.
Additionally, why are you using the false term, “forced,” rape? All rape is forced! That is part of the very definition of rape! This idea that there is some kind of, “unforced,” rape is a language manipulation begun by an ignorant politician and picked up on by right wing media to try to downplay rape and pretend it is not real, and to imply that women over claim rape. In fact, the opposite is true. The vast majority of rapes are not reported because women know how we will be treated by police, the courts and society…with doubt and shame and blame. And because these rapes are often committed by abusive controlling and even violent partners that women cannot get away from…because they cannot afford to or are afraid for other children and/or because the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when she tries to leave it…As well as when a partner like this learns she is pregnant…due to jealousy and whatever other issues make these people abusive….Then Sometimes she needs to obtain an abortion to make herself safer. And what you are really suggesting is that women are in complete control of whether they become pregnant or not throughout their lives which is ridiculous of course unless they do not have normal relationships (ie. Are nuns and never get sexually assaulted or simply never have an intimate relationship in their entire lives) because love and intimacy between human beings includes sexual relations and not just 2 or 3 times throughout a marriage or relationship to try to have a child. The vast majority of men are not interested in such a monk like existence. It is not realistic. And as mentioned at some point before, birth control is not completely dependable or in some cases , safe to stay on long term or safe for some women to use at all. Additionally this puts all the onus on women to have all the responsibility for birth control when let’s face it, men generally push for and want sex the most. Women mostly just want to be loved. And as I have mentioned before, some men refuse to use birth control or stealthily remove it. And I hope you don’t think married women don’t want or need abortions because that is just not the case. Being married does not mean women want to have 8 and 12 children… Too expensive, too much work for mostly working women, too much wear and tear on the body…But husbands and wives do still want to remain physically intimate even when not wanting more children, or getting to the age when birth defects are more likely (not caused by the devil…just aging eggs) and it’s too hard on the body or they are not ready when younger and trying to work and attend school, etc. The woman could even end up on bed rest for months (It is not uncommon to get life threatening blood clots) while trying to do these other things or care for other children. The woman is the one who suffers the most if the child has a fatal fetal anomaly and is forced to carry to term a fetus that is going to die within hours or days of birth and possibly suffer doing so. Or die in utero and endanger her own health. You see, it is always the woman who pays the price, physically, career wise, financially, emotionally, in all ways…And I hope you don’t think that young immature girls and teenagers should be forced to become mothers as punishment for being young and immature! And no, girls and women do not use abortion as their birth control plan…That’s just silly…Another made up right wing media manipulation…Of course there are always exceptions in the world but again I hope you don’t think these are the women you desperately want to become mothers and that you want to punish and control all other girls and women due to these few who are likely to have back alley abortions anyway…and likely die…woman and fetus…But women do need the option for abortion when birth control fails or they are forced into sex. Again, please don’t offer up adoption as a forced option…It is too emotionally gut wrenching once a child has actually developed and been carried to full term and been born and it negatively affects the adopted babies for life as they feel abandoned…It is impossible to get past that… I am familiar with many of these situations…So, your fantasy a few months ago that one these babies might cure cancer is far more likely to end up in the nightmare of dysfunction, drug addiction, poverty, neglect, trauma, etc. Additionally, such speculation could be made about any egg or sperm. So again I ask, do you insist on forcing women to always be pregnant and use all their eggs? And would you criminalize men’s masturbation? So that no sperm goes wasted and unmatched up with an egg?
Because gender is irrelevant to all of this If your argument is one of potential life. Because the egg and sperm are potential life as is the zygote. But only potential life…As so many things in all three cases have to happen and go right for a full term healthy baby to actually grow and be born and for all to go well for mother and child.
Gender of a zygote is also irrelevant in light of how complicated women’s lives and health and and pregnancy and childbirth are. A woman needs to have control over her life and health without interference…Only support for what are ultimately her decisions. The very fact you have referred to pregnancy as an, “inconvenience,” shows your utter lack of awareness. Men need to accept that they cannot comprehend the personal experiences and effects of pregnancy, childhood and motherhood and all the vulnerabilities that accompany these experiences.
And thus it must be a decision made between the woman/girl, her doctor and anyone else that she alone chooses to include, whether that be a partner or God or both. Period.
I won’t be distracted from my original question this time. Are you morally ok with the reality that an abortion terminates a baby boy or girl? We can talk about the mother’s rights once we’ve got the zygote issue squared away. Please carefully read the following. It’s from a PHD medical doctor from Princeton University (someone much more qualified than you or to speak on the matter) and details the myths vs facts of human development in the uterus. It is entirely scientific, no mention of God whatsoever. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html
And I won’t be distracted from my original question which is why are you morally okay with putting a zygote, an unaware undeveloped clump of cells without a developed brain or heart (even the supposed 6 week heartbeat is actually only an electrical impulse, not a heartbeat as often claimed) that merely has the potential, and only if all goes right, to actually become a human being, a birthed baby girl or baby boy, above an actually aware fully formed living and breathing human woman or girl who has agency and is loved and loves and is already a significant part of others’ lives? Why are Women and girls merely dispensable incubators to you and why do you find that morally acceptable? And why will you not answer my questions leading up to this point, about women’s health and the complexities of life? Why do you keep trying to reduce your argument to naive simplicity? Why do you think you get to control women and girls? And our bodies? Why do you think you should get to make these decisions for us? Do you think you, as a man, and perhaps as a self declared Christian, are somehow superior? And meant to be in charge?
Please answer my questions, Jim, and stop deflecting. Your article may make an argument for the sperm and egg being parts that need to be put together to potentially grow into an independent whole. But it does not change the fact that the zygote is still made up of unaware undeveloped cells without a developed heart or brain and is merely one more step along the long and difficult process that is needed to grow into and be born an actual living breathing aware human being with a developed heart and brain and lungs. Your article does not speak to or inform morality except as to how each of us individually interprets morality…which is exactly why the individual living breathing fully developed aware human being, ie. Woman or girl, is the only one who can make a decision, with whatever medical or spiritual advice she chooses, about what is to happen within herself.
God does not inflict disease. That is a byproduct of sin. “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.” Romans 5. You can blame satan on that one. There are no righteous people by nature, only Jesus. As far as children, God has them in His hand and has provided a way for all of us through Christ who died for us. That is ultimate love. Fortunately life on earth is but a vapor but eternity is forever.
So you are saying people with birth defects and diseases are products of the devil? Or their birth defects and diseases are? And yet most people are not born with birth defects and diseases…So God protected them but failed to protect the others? That only dome people have to pay for the sins of others?
I’m saying what Romans 5 says, that sin brought death and disease. No, people with birth defects and disease are not products of the devil. But we are all subject to sin and a fallen world. Jesus said in Matthew 5: He (God the Father) causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Meaning He gives us free will and that life is in a state of imbalance. Free will includes the choice to choose eternal life in Christ. Jesus also said that we will always have the poor among us. There is an inequality there I don’t understand so I choose to trust Jesus. If life were perfect we would all be in perfect health and all live to be over 100 but because of sin and a fallen diseased planet, some folks live healthy lives and others do not. And this has nothing to do with whether one is a Christian or not. There are Christians who get cancer and pass on and atheists who are perfectly healthy and live a long life. That is a great inequality. Yet everyone has the choice of eternal life, which is great news. 70 years on Earth is nothing compared to eternity in heaven. Hope I addressed you comment adequately.
If we think it is bad now, wait till the restrainer is raptured with all the born-again believers. I love your approach to this issue while we are in our spiritual “not yet” state. Thank you Jim.
The question as to when a human person begins is a philosophical question not a scientific question. I will not go into great detail here, but "personhood" begins when the human being begins at fertilization. But since many of the current popular "personhood" claims in bioethics are also based on mythological science, it would be useful to just look very briefly at these philosophical (or sometimes, theological) arguments simply for scientific accuracy as well.
Philosophically, virtually any claim for so-called "delayed personhood" that is, "personhood" does not start until some point after fertilization involves the theoretical disaster of accepting that the idea or concept of a mind/body split has any correlate or reflects the real world. Historically this problem was simply the consequence of wrong-headed thinking about reality, and was/is totally indefensible. It was abandoned with great embarrassment after Plato’s time (even by Plato himself in his Parmenides!), but unfortunately resurfaces from time to time, e.g., as with Descartes in his Meditations, and now again with contemporary bioethics. And as in the question of when a human being begins, if the science used to ground these philosophical "personhood" arguments is incorrect, the conclusions of these arguments (which are based on that incorrect science) are also incorrect and invalid. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html
Wow! Marianne I’ll just close by saying I KNOW (the word you seem to be uncomfortable with) what my beliefs are and am quite confident in them. I would never “foist” my personal beliefs on anyone. However I will protect unborn lives in the womb Marianne. That’s not a belief, it’s scientific fact. And I will protect girls from boys dressed as women from entering their private space and being threatened. Also not a belief but a safety issue which appears to allude you. I have every right to speak out about that. If you are really concerned about the rights of everyone then you need to be consistent about it. The rest of what I wrote speaks for itself as does what you wrote. I will let others be the arbiter of their own personal truth.
Still waiting on your definition of this god you keep mentioning.
The possible need to protect girls’ safe spaces does not allude me and I discussed that early in. However, it has nothing to do with religion and sin but rather practicality and fairness.
Your statement that you will protect unborn lives in the womb is a, “scientific fact,” is not a scientific fact. Rather it is a statement of will on your part based upon what you believe should be legal based upon your personal religious beliefs, not only about when life begins (Jews believe it begins at first breath… and eggs and spermicide and cells are alive…A woman is not even medically considered to be pregnant until an embryo attaches to the uterine lining…)And who are you to decide whose life and health is more important, a living breathing woman’s or even 9 year old girl’s or a few undeveloped clump of cells with no agency and no one depending on them and being a significant part of anyone’s lives yet? It never has and never will affect your life or health…I have already pointed out to you how dangerous pregnancy actually is and that it is now getting more dangerous because doctors and hospitals are afraid of saving women’s lives and health for fear of losing medical licenses and going to prison! But women are expendable right? And you will continue to vote Republican and thus against benefits for the babies born into poverty, right? Because your beliefs and your supposed KNOWLEDGE Is greater and more valuable than the scientific world’s and women’s knowledge over what’s best for them and their families? Because you have a superior relationship and KNOWLEDGE of God, right? So you have the right to control other people and their bodies right? Though they are causing you no harm? Because you KNOW what you KNOW, right? No, Jim…No, you do not…
I already addressed this as well Marianne. A human zygote is either male or female AT conception. This means you are killing a male or female fetus. Would you have same flippancy about an endangered gestating Blue Whale fetus? How about the fetus of a endangered black rhinoceros? They are not considered viable until they are born according to your standards. So let's kill them too, huh. Unless of course, you value these species above humans. Please say this isn't so.
Marianne to be clear I am saying this conversation is toxic, not you.
Three times you lamented that I cannot know the Bible is divinely inspired yet the Bible clearly demonstrates otherwise. 1 John 5:13 does say we can KNOW we have eternal life. You say “As for Jesus’s statement that he is the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father except through him, we don’t know exactly what he meant”. Who is “we”? Um, yes we can and do know what He meant. Jesus said in context “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Jesus also went on to say in Mark 16:15, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.” This directly addresses your comment above. The gospel is for every person on earth.
And by the way who are you to say I have NOT heard from God on these matters, hmm? Are you now placing yourself above His throne of knowledge? The Bible says I can know and I do know. I don’t understand why it bothers you that I am so confident in my faith. In fact conversations like this only strengthen it. So thank you for that much Marianne.
No you cannot KNOW that the Bible is divinely inspired and fundamentally accurate or true…You can only believe it. And you do not have a special relationship with God above others where he/she/ze communicates certain matters to you and not others. You may think you are receiving communication but you cannot KNOW it because you are only a fallible human. No, I am not placing myself above His throne of knowledge but I am placing myself equal to you in knowledge of God which is also that of a fallible human just like you are. Your insistence on KNOWING bothers me because it is impossible, arrogant and dangerous to people that don’t have the same beliefs that you would choose to control…like women and our bodies and people who are seeking gender affirming care who need the advice and help of doctors and perhaps psychologists but not religious zealots whose business it is not. .
I have already told you that the Jesus quote can be interpreted differently than you interpret it and I have told you particular way it can be interpreted differently…Certainly there are others. We do not all think or believe alike.
I believe God is God…The same God for everyone…Of course I cannot KNOW that any more than you can…
I am sorry to your admittance to only becoming more entrenched in your self righteousness rather than in becoming more open minded.
I already explained this above. Being open minded and flippant about one's core beliefs is foolish and dangerous. My core beliefs have not changed. You are allowing the culture to change yours. And you continue to be purposefully argumentative and disingenuous Marianne. You write a LOT but you fail to listen and read nor are you respecting my (your cousin) request to stop this.
Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth* and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Marianne said: "I believe God is God…The same God for everyone. Of course I cannot KNOW that"
Thankfully Jesus is quite sure of who He is. Case closed by Jesus Himself.
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13
Marianne, you continue to spread falsehoods and misinformation. The Bible directly contradicts you above. Your beloved Benjamin Creme says everyone should live according to their own beliefs. Great! Then why Marianne, do you keep saying "you cannot KNOW the Bible is divinely inspired"? That's my belief and Benjamin Creme (who you said sums up your beliefs nicely) says everyone should live according to their own beliefs. Then why don't you let me?
Good, I am glad you are not distressed! I am hoping your cup of coffee was drunk sitting outside amongst some greenery and even flowers. But barring that, somewhere in comfort. I was at ye olde Canton Memorial Day Parade and Cemetery ceremony this morning.
I am glad you think the woman has some rights, Jim but you don’t seem to realize and accept that she has superior rights because she is already a cognizant living breathing fully developed human being with agency who loves and is loved and depended upon. Thus not only must her life take precedent but also her health, both physical and emotional, as well as her financial health and family’s health. No, a zygote is not a baby. As you have pointed out your self, it is just one phase of a long complicated difficult process that must occur for an actual baby to develop and be born, one that goes wrong at least in 1 out of 4 pregnancies through miscarriages (that women are now being punished for by being accused of having abortions when they did not and in some cases being allowed to bleed out and be near death before being treated and then being thrown in jail…INSANE!). And then many other difficulties that create grave danger to the mother can occur along the way as well. This is why it MUST be the choice of the woman as to whether to carry a pregnancy to term or to the point of viability or not. I neglected to clarify to you after a previous post of yours that the term viability as it relates to pregnancies and fetuses, specifically refers to the point at which a fetus could be born and survive outside the womb as a baby. That is roughly 24 weeks or 6 months and is the reason that under Roe v. Wade, that was the limit for abortions without medical complications for woman or fetus. And nobody waits until they are in the last trimester and then decides to have an abortion without a physical reason. The idea that people do or would is just another scare tactic by the right wing media. And we must look at what is best for women as a whole and that is choice. The zygote’s rights are only equal to whatever rights a woman chooses to give to it because it is completely dependent upon a woman’s body, blood, nutrition, organs, ie. lungs and heart, etc. etc. A birthed baby needs an adult’s care but it does not need to live inside another’s body and take from it. If a woman is not getting enough to eat when pregnant or does not have enough vitamins and minerals, the fetus takes what there is and depletes the woman of her essential needs. I also noticed that you stated in a previous post that a baby needs it’s mother to take care of it, right after you spoke about how it is both mother’s and father’s responsibility. A Freudian slip I would say. And in truth, the burden of care does primarily fall to the mother and if she wants to give the best nutrition by nursing, it complicates her life greatly if she must work. Now when a woman chooses to get pregnant or to continue an unplanned pregnancy because she is in a good place in her life to have a child and very much wants to be a mother, she well may be able to lighten these burdens if she is financially stable as well as emotionally stable and she may be overjoyed…And therefore confer all the rights she wishes upon a developing pregnancy. So, in other words, just like no one should be able to force a woman to remain pregnant before the point of viability (5-6 months by which time the vast majority of women will have had time and opportunity to choose to abort) or afterwards in the event of medical reasons, it is equally true that no one has the right to force a woman to have an abortion either. It must be entirely up to the woman, who will confer with whom she wishes….doctor, partner, minister, God, or no one.
As for the gender issue, I just do not understand why you think that matters so much…A zygote or embryo or fetus is no more or less important because it is one sex or the other…Or neither sex. By the way, did you know that both xy and xx zygotes begin in a female state and it is not until the hormones go to work that the male sexual organs develop. It is because of the variations of the effect of these hormones that some people end up homosexual. Anyway, so much for woman being formed out of man’s rib…It is really the other way around.
Zygotes cannot be witnesses as they do not have brains or consciousness. They also do not have a fundamental right to be conceived. They just happened to be. But there was no requirement that this man and this woman had to come together and have sex at exactly the right time without birth control, or with birth control that would fail, in spite of outdated Catholic teachings. Anyway, if women all wore chastity belts and became nuns and denied men (who I guess would be forced to have sex only with each other) then these zygotes would not be spontaneously conceived. In other words, their existence is not a given and thus their taking over a woman’s body and risking her health and life is not a given or right either. Otherwise we would be criminalizing women having periods and not trying to always be pregnant and criminalizing male masturbation because those sperm and those eggs would have a given right to match up and begin the process of developing into a baby. No, it is only when the process has been allowed to continue to the point of viability…when there is an actual cognizant baby that can live independently outside another body, that the baby has rights.
As for this theoretical killing of pregnant endangered species you are still trying to use as somehow an argument against abortion, I have to say that you are continuing to not make any sense. When have I ever discussed killing a pregnant being of any kind? Human or animal? I never did and certainly would not indicate that is okay. Only you have talked about killing a pregnant animal, ie. a pregnant whale….Are you implying that I think fully developed animals are just clumps of cells? Because I don’t….And why would I support aborting the zygote of a pregnant whale if the mother whale does not want or need an abortion? If the pregnancy were going to kill her or destroy her health, then I would want to protect her, yes but giving her a necessary abortion. Again you seem to be very very confused in your thinking on this and in your attempts to make an analogy that simply does not work.
Dear My Brain to Yours readers, I try to remember three main points when dialoging with refuters.
First, I doubt the Holy Spirit indwells most of the people who refute God's perspective. Since this is highly probable, unsaved minds are depraved minds. We have the deception of babies in the womb NOT being life because the mother carrying the child has NO indwelling Life. THAT IS THE PRIMARY ISSUE. Meaning it takes a Christ-as-Life view of new life to inspire born-again authentic indwelt believers.
Secondly, you can’t reform a depraved mind, no matter how much science the presenter uses to convince otherwise. As the Word says, unsaved people are stupid & have darkened minds. Dark minds cannot understand Jesus’s mind without being possessed by Jesus. My thinking is never to debate stupid people. When they want to debate, I quickly move them to explore the “how” to house the mind of Christ. Without this, discussions quickly implode into fruitless discussions. Only Jesus in us has a sound mind. Any discussions outside of this turn up futile.
Third, my view on abortion is not earthly in any sense. In Jeremiah, God makes it clear He knew Jeremiah BEFORE he was conceived! That is the root truth.
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born, I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)
Therefore, proving abortion is wrong via science is not only fruitless, but it isn’t the organic Truth. Using science to prove life is lacking LIFE. Satan knows this Truth! Satan understands God puts pre-chosen life in the wombs of women. In this, he (Satan) motivates people, saved or not, to fight and quarrel over mindless reasoning. As I have been told many times, my views on life in the womb will never be accepted by humanity. Each time I say -Of course, they won’t; they are depraved as God’s greatest enemy. However, in this case, Satan is more in tune with Truth than the depraved minds that covertly follow him. -Dr. Phinney
I think you meant that in your view a necessary (not unnecessary…typo on your part I think) abortion is when the life of the mother is at risk or in cases of, “forced,” rape where the choice was not optional. While I appreciate you concern for the life of the mother, what about her health? She could end up with serious physical health concerns, sometimes reproductive health, issues and/or sometimes emotional health concerns. These matters can deeply negatively affect her life as well as potentially a child’s regarding care, mental health, physical health, financial well being, etc. or she may end up not ever being able to have a viable child if not allowed to abort an ongoing dangerous pregnancy. And why do you speak of, “rare,” medical conditions? Medical complications with pregnancy and childbirth are not rare, Jim…What makes you think they are? To start with, 1 out of 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage which is a risky complication in and of itself, especially the further along the pregnancy, due to the danger of bleeding out. And yet, doctors and hospitals in states that have banned most abortions are afraid to give treatment for these miscarriages (Ordinarily a D and C or a Dilatation and Cutterege which safely cleans out tissue and blood clots) risking hemorrhaging and sepsis (potentially fatal blood infections). Women are also being neglected when they are not necessarily miscarrying yet but it is known the fetus has died or her water has broken too early but there is still a heartbeat (just a couple of examples) and the medical community waits for the women to go into septic shock/begin dying before they will abort out of fear of legal trouble, even though such a fetus cannot possibly be born alive! This is what happens when medical decisions are not left up to the medical experts and the patients, and instead are made by ignorant legislators trying to control other people and things they do not understand.
Additionally, why are you using the false term, “forced,” rape? All rape is forced! That is part of the very definition of rape! This idea that there is some kind of, “unforced,” rape is a language manipulation begun by an ignorant politician and picked up on by right wing media to try to downplay rape and pretend it is not real, and to imply that women over claim rape. In fact, the opposite is true. The vast majority of rapes are not reported because women know how we will be treated by police, the courts and society…with doubt and shame and blame. And because these rapes are often committed by abusive controlling and even violent partners that women cannot get away from…because they cannot afford to or are afraid for other children and/or because the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when she tries to leave it…As well as when a partner like this learns she is pregnant…due to jealousy and whatever other issues make these people abusive….Then Sometimes she needs to obtain an abortion to make herself safer. And what you are really suggesting is that women are in complete control of whether they become pregnant or not throughout their lives which is ridiculous of course unless they do not have normal relationships (ie. Are nuns and never get sexually assaulted or simply never have an intimate relationship in their entire lives) because love and intimacy between human beings includes sexual relations and not just 2 or 3 times throughout a marriage or relationship to try to have a child. The vast majority of men are not interested in such a monk like existence. It is not realistic. And as mentioned at some point before, birth control is not completely dependable or in some cases , safe to stay on long term or safe for some women to use at all. Additionally this puts all the onus on women to have all the responsibility for birth control when let’s face it, men generally push for and want sex the most. Women mostly just want to be loved. And as I have mentioned before, some men refuse to use birth control or stealthily remove it. And I hope you don’t think married women don’t want or need abortions because that is just not the case. Being married does not mean women want to have 8 and 12 children… Too expensive, too much work for mostly working women, too much wear and tear on the body…But husbands and wives do still want to remain physically intimate even when not wanting more children, or getting to the age when birth defects are more likely (not caused by the devil…just aging eggs) and it’s too hard on the body or they are not ready when younger and trying to work and attend school, etc. The woman could even end up on bed rest for months (It is not uncommon to get life threatening blood clots) while trying to do these other things or care for other children. The woman is the one who suffers the most if the child has a fatal fetal anomaly and is forced to carry to term a fetus that is going to die within hours or days of birth and possibly suffer doing so. Or die in utero and endanger her own health. You see, it is always the woman who pays the price, physically, career wise, financially, emotionally, in all ways…And I hope you don’t think that young immature girls and teenagers should be forced to become mothers as punishment for being young and immature! And no, girls and women do not use abortion as their birth control plan…That’s just silly…Another made up right wing media manipulation…Of course there are always exceptions in the world but again I hope you don’t think these are the women you desperately want to become mothers and that you want to punish and control all other girls and women due to these few who are likely to have back alley abortions anyway…and likely die…woman and fetus…But women do need the option for abortion when birth control fails or they are forced into sex. Again, please don’t offer up adoption as a forced option…It is too emotionally gut wrenching once a child has actually developed and been carried to full term and been born and it negatively affects the adopted babies for life as they feel abandoned…It is impossible to get past that… I am familiar with many of these situations…So, your fantasy a few months ago that one these babies might cure cancer is far more likely to end up in the nightmare of dysfunction, drug addiction, poverty, neglect, trauma, etc. Additionally, such speculation could be made about any egg or sperm. So again I ask, do you insist on forcing women to always be pregnant and use all their eggs? And would you criminalize men’s masturbation? So that no sperm goes wasted and unmatched up with an egg?
Because gender is irrelevant to all of this If your argument is one of potential life. Because the egg and sperm are potential life as is the zygote. But only potential life…As so many things in all three cases have to happen and go right for a full term healthy baby to actually grow and be born and for all to go well for mother and child.
Gender of a zygote is also irrelevant in light of how complicated women’s lives and health and and pregnancy and childbirth are. A woman needs to have control over her life and health without interference…Only support for what are ultimately her decisions. The very fact you have referred to pregnancy as an, “inconvenience,” shows your utter lack of awareness. Men need to accept that they cannot comprehend the personal experiences and effects of pregnancy, childhood and motherhood and all the vulnerabilities that accompany these experiences.
And thus it must be a decision made between the woman/girl, her doctor and anyone else that she alone chooses to include, whether that be a partner or God or both. Period.
What are you even talking about? When a man says, STOP,” about sex? I never addressed that at all but of course a woman should stop too if a man says to stop. Or When a man says, “STOP,” about an abortion? That is up to the woman of course because the pregnancy and childbirth only affect her body and affect her life much more often to a much greater extent so yes, she must have control over the situation.
I notice you never respond to the issues of women’s lives and health and safety…Very telling.
One question at a time. I cannot answer an exhaustive paragraph. Please formulate a one sentence question and I will answer, lest we get side tracked. Fair enough?
Perhaps you did not read this post so I have copied it for you:
The mother’s health and life, human or animal matters more than an undeveloped unaware zygote, embryo, fetus…Her life, her physical health, reproductive health, financial health and emotional health….when a choice needs to be made…You don’t get to choose for women and girls to lose their lives or health in order to save undeveloped clumps of cells…Only the woman or girl in consultation with her doctor and anyone else she so chooses gets to make that choice. As it stands now, hospitals and doctors in some states are risking women’s and girls’ lives for non viable fetuses because of their own fear of getting in trouble…It is outrageous. It is not for you to make this choice. Why do you not care about women and girls? Only undeveloped unaware clumps of cells? Why not just force girls to get pregnant every month they are not pregnant so their body doesn’t expel the life of the egg? Why not criminalize men’s masturbating? After all those sperm are potentially part of new life? Why do you have such disregard for women and girls? What if your daughter’s life or health were in danger? Would you sacrifice them for a few cells? If my daughter or DIL or any other beloved young woman in my life lost their life or health or reproductive ability because people such as yourself helped push laws through preventing them from making their own decisions and taking care of their own health, I would frankly consider that to be unconscionable! Why such need for control over women? Why such a lack of compassion? Women are not mere incubators…This is not the Handmaid’s Tale…At least I and most women hope not. Between 60 and 70% of all Americans support abortion rights and yet you say you would or will try to deny and prevent these rights and at the same time say you don’t want to foist your religious beliefs on others. But oh yes you do…You most certainly do.
And we have already talked about the fact that not all zygotes/embryos/fetuses are clearly male or female and even if so, it does not change the discussion in the least. The woman is female but it’s okay with you if she suffers and/or dies….As a man you really have no moral say in this matter beyond what input any woman chooses to give any individual men in her life. That is the way it has to be in order to protect women from uncaring misogynistic men. I notice men have no objection to health insurance paying for viagra!
The place I always struggle with this is: How do we show God's love and grace to this group of people without implying that we support their ideas? From their perspective (at least it seems to me), if we don't accept and affirm what they believe, then we are intolerant and judgmental. This pushes them away from God. That's the last thing I want. Yet for many Christians, including me, any effort I make to stand up against the LGBTQ movement is simply from a place of compassion. I recognize that I am a sinner saved by grace, and I have no moral high ground to stand on other than the work that Jesus has done on the cross on my behalf. But he did that for them too, if they choose it. So I am no better than they are because I accept the gender God has given me, and they are not worse because they want to be a different gender. We just struggle with different sins and mental/emotional difficulties. And we can both be saved by God's grace. But yes, if you want to follow God, then you have to turn from your sin, and that includes anything that falls in the LGBTQ realm, as much as they don't want to accept that.
Great question Karen. Wish I had a good answer. I believe we have to always speak the Truth in love, being ready to give an answer for the hope that lies within us. But we should avoid going on the offensive. Likewise, inviting unsaved folks into our world, our church, our home over time gives us the right through relationship to speak into each others lives. With complete strangers this is impossible and will likely lead to discord. Even so, we have the right and responsibility to stand for truth in the public marketplace of ideas. Hopefully with gentleness and respect. Ultimately it is the Holy Spirit who changes hearts and minds. We are merely seed planters. If they find Him, He will lead them to Truth infinitely better than we ever could.
Jim, there really aren’t that many questions and I think you are capable of putting ones together that make sense to you to answer together or go ahead and start with the first question and answer them one at a time in separate posts if you find that easier. But I don’t see the point of going back and forth on each question rather than having you just go ahead and address the follow up questions as well, which would give a more thorough picture of your views. And then if I have further questions I could ask. Or on second thought, perhaps you are right and if you really would prefer to do it the way you asked, that is fine, but perhaps should wait for another day as I am getting tired tonight and have a few things to do before heading to my Aunt Lucy’s 90th Birthday Party tomorrow!!!!
Since we have devolved into a great many issues, I would rather stick to one at a time if you don’t mind. Since you say they’re aren’t many questions then we should be able to keep it simple and start with any one you choose. My original post was concerning Zygotes and devolved from there so perhaps that is the place to start. Unfortunately we do but have a common frame of reference for truth so this may become enormously difficult very quickly. 🤔
A long essay could be written, but I just want to comment…(this isn't a criticism!)
When a narrative expresses ideas that are completely foolish and insane, understand that there is something completely different going on. The purpose of the insane gender identity narratives is a component part of a much larger campaign, which is part of a larger war.
For ourselves we must negate the ideas presented by the foolish narratives. It is futile to fully engage with these narratives as they are flaming arrows sent to bring confusion and division.
The objective of the larger campaign is to demoralize the population and inflict them with "learned helplessness". This helplessness must be so overwhelming that it overcomes the natural instincts to nurture and protect their children. The family unit of parents and children is targeted for destruction, but even this is not the main target of the war.
The main target of the war is the TRUTH of God and His Word, which lives in the minds of the believers. That makes us targets as well. The objective is to eliminate all believers and potential believers from the earth. These actual objectives are hidden by the insane, foolish, irrelevant narratives which are loudly promoted by corrupt segments of this society.
Ironically posts of this nature have the highest view count as folks seem to be drawn to controversial issues. So long as the solution leads them to Christ I suppose a brief, healthy debate could be beneficial.
Yes. Many hearts are troubled right now. We are all afflicted by the persecution from the world & the saved and unsaved alike are searching for answers. As God awakens more and more people, they can begin to take their place in standing against the enemy.
LIFE IS GOING TO GET BETTER!
And He is!
Agree on all points good sir.
Thanks, Jim. Crazy stuff going on. Before being transformed into the Life of Christ, the flesh masters the soul and spirit. It literally is the identity of the unsaved individual. No clever form of self-management can change or reform this positional condition. It is a death sentence that will occur unless one receives new Life in Jesus Christ. After someone receives the Life of Christ from within, their old spirit (Adamic nature) is replaced with the Nature of Christ – they receive a new Spirit, the Holy Spirit. At the moment of this experience, the Spirit becomes active in renewing the soul, the mind of the new convert. However, the sarx, or flesh, is not renewed. Nor will it. That is until the authentic believer is given a new sarx, body, on Heaven’s side. It replicates the “why” the old earth must be destroyed. This prophetic action must occur to have the Lord usher in the New Heaven and Earth. What is born of the earth, must die of the earth.
Amen!
The problem is that there are in fact people born with different mixes of chromosomes than XY and XX….There are XXY and XYY and people with other combinations and these folks often have a mix of genitals…For example, they may have female genitalia but no uterus or male genitals and a uterus. Granted these folks are rare but regardless it shows that there are indeed non-binary people and at some point they are either going to make a choice and have surgery or they are going to remain non binary. Apparently there is scientific evidence of this being the case hormonally as well in some folks even if born with uniform body parts. It does make me wonder in those cases if it wouldn’t be more sensible then to match the hormone treatment with the body parts rather than have surgery to match the body with the hormones but I don’t feel like I necessarily know what is best for others. It does make me uncomfortable to think that in some cases though it probably is psychological and that puberty has always been a difficult age that some may be simply trying to escape…Particularly perhaps girls wanting to escape the unwanted attention that comes with development. And I wonder if we shouldn’t be helping girls feel more comfortable and confident in their own skin instead. But again, I don’t feel I necessarily have the answers. I am definitely bothered by trans girls competing against cis girls in sports…I cannot help but feel this is inherently unfair and that when it comes to women’s rooms and locker rooms and other safe spaces for women, that these are potentially being taken from us. I just had my first experience with a coed public restroom in South Carolina of all places! The individual stalls were actual separate rooms in that they had floor to ceiling walls but they shared the main room, sink and mirror area and even that was weird…No more changing one’s shirt or putting on make up in the, “Ladies’ Room,” I guess!
Hi Marianne. Yes XXY is known as Klinefelter syndrome. A genetic condition in which a male is born with an extra copy of the X chromosome. Opposite for the female. XYY syndrome is associated with an increased risk of learning disabilities and delayed development of speech and language skills. They are both very rare. These folks are biologically non-binary at birth, not by choice.
I’m really talking about folks who are clearly born either male of female and surgically alter themselves by choice. There is nothing natural about this, especially for a binary 14+ year old. These “choice” incidents are much, much more common than those born XXY.
Biblically speaking, there are only two genders as God designed them. After the fall (Genesis 3) sin and disease entered the world as did things like birth defects and such. So we must be careful as Christians not to promote unnatural, unneeded surgery, especially to 14 year olds. Anyone over the age of consent can do whatever they want to their bodies, but they would be in error to call in natural as explained above.
I do appreciate your comments Marianne. Conversation promotes thought which can be a good thing.
Yes, the alternate chromosome situations are rare. However, as I mentioned gender dysmorphia can apparently also be induced by homonal biological influences on the brain in uteri just as homosexuality is…It is not all psychological…And apparently those who are not accepted as who they believe themselves to be and given the option of surgery are much more in danger of committing suicide due to their misery which I find very concerning.
And why would a loving God inflict disease and birth defects upon innocent babies and people and yet not on others, innocent and the not always so innocent? How cruel is that?
Marianne, I apologize for I have strayed far from my original point which was quite simply, that a human Zygote is either male or female (or XXY in rare cases as agreed). In any case we are still talking about male or female human being in the womb from conception. Therefore when a woman decides to have an unnecessary abortion she should ask: Am I killing a boy or a girl? That should make it personal, at the very least generically accurate. If a mother’s conscience is clear on this, then I suppose that’s ultimately between them and the Lord.
In my view, an unnecessary abortion is certainly one where the life of the mother is at risk and other rare medical conditions, and also forced rape where the choice was not optional.
Remember the question girls: Am I killing a baby boy or a girl?
That’s all I have to say about that.
Hi Jim,
I think you meant that in your view a necessary (not unnecessary…typo on your part I think) abortion is when the life of the mother is at risk or in cases of, “forced,” rape where the choice was not optional. While I appreciate you concern for the life of the mother, what about her health? She could end up with serious physical health concerns, sometimes reproductive health, issues and/or sometimes emotional health concerns. These matters can deeply negatively affect her life as well as potentially a child’s regarding care, mental health, physical health, financial well being, etc. or she may end up not ever being able to have a viable child if not allowed to abort an ongoing dangerous pregnancy. And why do you speak of, “rare,” medical conditions? Medical complications with pregnancy and childbirth are not rare, Jim…What makes you think they are? To start with, 1 out of 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage which is a risky complication in and of itself, especially the further along the pregnancy, due to the danger of bleeding out. And yet, doctors and hospitals in states that have banned most abortions are afraid to give treatment for these miscarriages (Ordinarily a D and C or a Dilatation and Cutterege which safely cleans out tissue and blood clots) risking hemorrhaging and sepsis (potentially fatal blood infections). Women are also being neglected when they are not necessarily miscarrying yet but it is known the fetus has died or her water has broken too early but there is still a heartbeat (just a couple of examples) and the medical community waits for the women to go into septic shock/begin dying before they will abort out of fear of legal trouble, even though such a fetus cannot possibly be born alive! This is what happens when medical decisions are not left up to the medical experts and the patients, and instead are made by ignorant legislators trying to control other people and things they do not understand.
Additionally, why are you using the false term, “forced,” rape? All rape is forced! That is part of the very definition of rape! This idea that there is some kind of, “unforced,” rape is a language manipulation begun by an ignorant politician and picked up on by right wing media to try to downplay rape and pretend it is not real, and to imply that women over claim rape. In fact, the opposite is true. The vast majority of rapes are not reported because women know how we will be treated by police, the courts and society…with doubt and shame and blame. And because these rapes are often committed by abusive controlling and even violent partners that women cannot get away from…because they cannot afford to or are afraid for other children and/or because the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when she tries to leave it…As well as when a partner like this learns she is pregnant…due to jealousy and whatever other issues make these people abusive….Then Sometimes she needs to obtain an abortion to make herself safer. And what you are really suggesting is that women are in complete control of whether they become pregnant or not throughout their lives which is ridiculous of course unless they do not have normal relationships (ie. Are nuns and never get sexually assaulted or simply never have an intimate relationship in their entire lives) because love and intimacy between human beings includes sexual relations and not just 2 or 3 times throughout a marriage or relationship to try to have a child. The vast majority of men are not interested in such a monk like existence. It is not realistic. And as mentioned at some point before, birth control is not completely dependable or in some cases , safe to stay on long term or safe for some women to use at all. Additionally this puts all the onus on women to have all the responsibility for birth control when let’s face it, men generally push for and want sex the most. Women mostly just want to be loved. And as I have mentioned before, some men refuse to use birth control or stealthily remove it. And I hope you don’t think married women don’t want or need abortions because that is just not the case. Being married does not mean women want to have 8 and 12 children… Too expensive, too much work for mostly working women, too much wear and tear on the body…But husbands and wives do still want to remain physically intimate even when not wanting more children, or getting to the age when birth defects are more likely (not caused by the devil…just aging eggs) and it’s too hard on the body or they are not ready when younger and trying to work and attend school, etc. The woman could even end up on bed rest for months (It is not uncommon to get life threatening blood clots) while trying to do these other things or care for other children. The woman is the one who suffers the most if the child has a fatal fetal anomaly and is forced to carry to term a fetus that is going to die within hours or days of birth and possibly suffer doing so. Or die in utero and endanger her own health. You see, it is always the woman who pays the price, physically, career wise, financially, emotionally, in all ways…And I hope you don’t think that young immature girls and teenagers should be forced to become mothers as punishment for being young and immature! And no, girls and women do not use abortion as their birth control plan…That’s just silly…Another made up right wing media manipulation…Of course there are always exceptions in the world but again I hope you don’t think these are the women you desperately want to become mothers and that you want to punish and control all other girls and women due to these few who are likely to have back alley abortions anyway…and likely die…woman and fetus…But women do need the option for abortion when birth control fails or they are forced into sex. Again, please don’t offer up adoption as a forced option…It is too emotionally gut wrenching once a child has actually developed and been carried to full term and been born and it negatively affects the adopted babies for life as they feel abandoned…It is impossible to get past that… I am familiar with many of these situations…So, your fantasy a few months ago that one these babies might cure cancer is far more likely to end up in the nightmare of dysfunction, drug addiction, poverty, neglect, trauma, etc. Additionally, such speculation could be made about any egg or sperm. So again I ask, do you insist on forcing women to always be pregnant and use all their eggs? And would you criminalize men’s masturbation? So that no sperm goes wasted and unmatched up with an egg?
Because gender is irrelevant to all of this If your argument is one of potential life. Because the egg and sperm are potential life as is the zygote. But only potential life…As so many things in all three cases have to happen and go right for a full term healthy baby to actually grow and be born and for all to go well for mother and child.
Gender of a zygote is also irrelevant in light of how complicated women’s lives and health and and pregnancy and childbirth are. A woman needs to have control over her life and health without interference…Only support for what are ultimately her decisions. The very fact you have referred to pregnancy as an, “inconvenience,” shows your utter lack of awareness. Men need to accept that they cannot comprehend the personal experiences and effects of pregnancy, childhood and motherhood and all the vulnerabilities that accompany these experiences.
And thus it must be a decision made between the woman/girl, her doctor and anyone else that she alone chooses to include, whether that be a partner or God or both. Period.
I won’t be distracted from my original question this time. Are you morally ok with the reality that an abortion terminates a baby boy or girl? We can talk about the mother’s rights once we’ve got the zygote issue squared away. Please carefully read the following. It’s from a PHD medical doctor from Princeton University (someone much more qualified than you or to speak on the matter) and details the myths vs facts of human development in the uterus. It is entirely scientific, no mention of God whatsoever. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html
And I won’t be distracted from my original question which is why are you morally okay with putting a zygote, an unaware undeveloped clump of cells without a developed brain or heart (even the supposed 6 week heartbeat is actually only an electrical impulse, not a heartbeat as often claimed) that merely has the potential, and only if all goes right, to actually become a human being, a birthed baby girl or baby boy, above an actually aware fully formed living and breathing human woman or girl who has agency and is loved and loves and is already a significant part of others’ lives? Why are Women and girls merely dispensable incubators to you and why do you find that morally acceptable? And why will you not answer my questions leading up to this point, about women’s health and the complexities of life? Why do you keep trying to reduce your argument to naive simplicity? Why do you think you get to control women and girls? And our bodies? Why do you think you should get to make these decisions for us? Do you think you, as a man, and perhaps as a self declared Christian, are somehow superior? And meant to be in charge?
Please answer my questions, Jim, and stop deflecting. Your article may make an argument for the sperm and egg being parts that need to be put together to potentially grow into an independent whole. But it does not change the fact that the zygote is still made up of unaware undeveloped cells without a developed heart or brain and is merely one more step along the long and difficult process that is needed to grow into and be born an actual living breathing aware human being with a developed heart and brain and lungs. Your article does not speak to or inform morality except as to how each of us individually interprets morality…which is exactly why the individual living breathing fully developed aware human being, ie. Woman or girl, is the only one who can make a decision, with whatever medical or spiritual advice she chooses, about what is to happen within herself.
God does not inflict disease. That is a byproduct of sin. “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.” Romans 5. You can blame satan on that one. There are no righteous people by nature, only Jesus. As far as children, God has them in His hand and has provided a way for all of us through Christ who died for us. That is ultimate love. Fortunately life on earth is but a vapor but eternity is forever.
So you are saying people with birth defects and diseases are products of the devil? Or their birth defects and diseases are? And yet most people are not born with birth defects and diseases…So God protected them but failed to protect the others? That only dome people have to pay for the sins of others?
I’m saying what Romans 5 says, that sin brought death and disease. No, people with birth defects and disease are not products of the devil. But we are all subject to sin and a fallen world. Jesus said in Matthew 5: He (God the Father) causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Meaning He gives us free will and that life is in a state of imbalance. Free will includes the choice to choose eternal life in Christ. Jesus also said that we will always have the poor among us. There is an inequality there I don’t understand so I choose to trust Jesus. If life were perfect we would all be in perfect health and all live to be over 100 but because of sin and a fallen diseased planet, some folks live healthy lives and others do not. And this has nothing to do with whether one is a Christian or not. There are Christians who get cancer and pass on and atheists who are perfectly healthy and live a long life. That is a great inequality. Yet everyone has the choice of eternal life, which is great news. 70 years on Earth is nothing compared to eternity in heaven. Hope I addressed you comment adequately.
If we think it is bad now, wait till the restrainer is raptured with all the born-again believers. I love your approach to this issue while we are in our spiritual “not yet” state. Thank you Jim.
I can’t wait to be “absent from the body” when He calls me.
Good stuff here:
When does a human person begin?
The question as to when a human person begins is a philosophical question not a scientific question. I will not go into great detail here, but "personhood" begins when the human being begins at fertilization. But since many of the current popular "personhood" claims in bioethics are also based on mythological science, it would be useful to just look very briefly at these philosophical (or sometimes, theological) arguments simply for scientific accuracy as well.
Philosophically, virtually any claim for so-called "delayed personhood" that is, "personhood" does not start until some point after fertilization involves the theoretical disaster of accepting that the idea or concept of a mind/body split has any correlate or reflects the real world. Historically this problem was simply the consequence of wrong-headed thinking about reality, and was/is totally indefensible. It was abandoned with great embarrassment after Plato’s time (even by Plato himself in his Parmenides!), but unfortunately resurfaces from time to time, e.g., as with Descartes in his Meditations, and now again with contemporary bioethics. And as in the question of when a human being begins, if the science used to ground these philosophical "personhood" arguments is incorrect, the conclusions of these arguments (which are based on that incorrect science) are also incorrect and invalid. https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html
Also, some of your answers will be found here: https://open.substack.com/pub/jrichardson/p/offended-by-the-truth?r=1oao9o&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post Sleep well!
Wow! Marianne I’ll just close by saying I KNOW (the word you seem to be uncomfortable with) what my beliefs are and am quite confident in them. I would never “foist” my personal beliefs on anyone. However I will protect unborn lives in the womb Marianne. That’s not a belief, it’s scientific fact. And I will protect girls from boys dressed as women from entering their private space and being threatened. Also not a belief but a safety issue which appears to allude you. I have every right to speak out about that. If you are really concerned about the rights of everyone then you need to be consistent about it. The rest of what I wrote speaks for itself as does what you wrote. I will let others be the arbiter of their own personal truth.
Still waiting on your definition of this god you keep mentioning.
The possible need to protect girls’ safe spaces does not allude me and I discussed that early in. However, it has nothing to do with religion and sin but rather practicality and fairness.
Your statement that you will protect unborn lives in the womb is a, “scientific fact,” is not a scientific fact. Rather it is a statement of will on your part based upon what you believe should be legal based upon your personal religious beliefs, not only about when life begins (Jews believe it begins at first breath… and eggs and spermicide and cells are alive…A woman is not even medically considered to be pregnant until an embryo attaches to the uterine lining…)And who are you to decide whose life and health is more important, a living breathing woman’s or even 9 year old girl’s or a few undeveloped clump of cells with no agency and no one depending on them and being a significant part of anyone’s lives yet? It never has and never will affect your life or health…I have already pointed out to you how dangerous pregnancy actually is and that it is now getting more dangerous because doctors and hospitals are afraid of saving women’s lives and health for fear of losing medical licenses and going to prison! But women are expendable right? And you will continue to vote Republican and thus against benefits for the babies born into poverty, right? Because your beliefs and your supposed KNOWLEDGE Is greater and more valuable than the scientific world’s and women’s knowledge over what’s best for them and their families? Because you have a superior relationship and KNOWLEDGE of God, right? So you have the right to control other people and their bodies right? Though they are causing you no harm? Because you KNOW what you KNOW, right? No, Jim…No, you do not…
I already addressed this as well Marianne. A human zygote is either male or female AT conception. This means you are killing a male or female fetus. Would you have same flippancy about an endangered gestating Blue Whale fetus? How about the fetus of a endangered black rhinoceros? They are not considered viable until they are born according to your standards. So let's kill them too, huh. Unless of course, you value these species above humans. Please say this isn't so.
Marianne to be clear I am saying this conversation is toxic, not you.
Three times you lamented that I cannot know the Bible is divinely inspired yet the Bible clearly demonstrates otherwise. 1 John 5:13 does say we can KNOW we have eternal life. You say “As for Jesus’s statement that he is the way, the truth and the life and that no one comes to the Father except through him, we don’t know exactly what he meant”. Who is “we”? Um, yes we can and do know what He meant. Jesus said in context “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Jesus also went on to say in Mark 16:15, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.” This directly addresses your comment above. The gospel is for every person on earth.
And by the way who are you to say I have NOT heard from God on these matters, hmm? Are you now placing yourself above His throne of knowledge? The Bible says I can know and I do know. I don’t understand why it bothers you that I am so confident in my faith. In fact conversations like this only strengthen it. So thank you for that much Marianne.
No you cannot KNOW that the Bible is divinely inspired and fundamentally accurate or true…You can only believe it. And you do not have a special relationship with God above others where he/she/ze communicates certain matters to you and not others. You may think you are receiving communication but you cannot KNOW it because you are only a fallible human. No, I am not placing myself above His throne of knowledge but I am placing myself equal to you in knowledge of God which is also that of a fallible human just like you are. Your insistence on KNOWING bothers me because it is impossible, arrogant and dangerous to people that don’t have the same beliefs that you would choose to control…like women and our bodies and people who are seeking gender affirming care who need the advice and help of doctors and perhaps psychologists but not religious zealots whose business it is not. .
I have already told you that the Jesus quote can be interpreted differently than you interpret it and I have told you particular way it can be interpreted differently…Certainly there are others. We do not all think or believe alike.
I believe God is God…The same God for everyone…Of course I cannot KNOW that any more than you can…
I am sorry to your admittance to only becoming more entrenched in your self righteousness rather than in becoming more open minded.
"becoming more open minded."
I already explained this above. Being open minded and flippant about one's core beliefs is foolish and dangerous. My core beliefs have not changed. You are allowing the culture to change yours. And you continue to be purposefully argumentative and disingenuous Marianne. You write a LOT but you fail to listen and read nor are you respecting my (your cousin) request to stop this.
Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth* and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Marianne said: "I believe God is God…The same God for everyone. Of course I cannot KNOW that"
Thankfully Jesus is quite sure of who He is. Case closed by Jesus Himself.
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13
Marianne, you continue to spread falsehoods and misinformation. The Bible directly contradicts you above. Your beloved Benjamin Creme says everyone should live according to their own beliefs. Great! Then why Marianne, do you keep saying "you cannot KNOW the Bible is divinely inspired"? That's my belief and Benjamin Creme (who you said sums up your beliefs nicely) says everyone should live according to their own beliefs. Then why don't you let me?
Good, I am glad you are not distressed! I am hoping your cup of coffee was drunk sitting outside amongst some greenery and even flowers. But barring that, somewhere in comfort. I was at ye olde Canton Memorial Day Parade and Cemetery ceremony this morning.
I am glad you think the woman has some rights, Jim but you don’t seem to realize and accept that she has superior rights because she is already a cognizant living breathing fully developed human being with agency who loves and is loved and depended upon. Thus not only must her life take precedent but also her health, both physical and emotional, as well as her financial health and family’s health. No, a zygote is not a baby. As you have pointed out your self, it is just one phase of a long complicated difficult process that must occur for an actual baby to develop and be born, one that goes wrong at least in 1 out of 4 pregnancies through miscarriages (that women are now being punished for by being accused of having abortions when they did not and in some cases being allowed to bleed out and be near death before being treated and then being thrown in jail…INSANE!). And then many other difficulties that create grave danger to the mother can occur along the way as well. This is why it MUST be the choice of the woman as to whether to carry a pregnancy to term or to the point of viability or not. I neglected to clarify to you after a previous post of yours that the term viability as it relates to pregnancies and fetuses, specifically refers to the point at which a fetus could be born and survive outside the womb as a baby. That is roughly 24 weeks or 6 months and is the reason that under Roe v. Wade, that was the limit for abortions without medical complications for woman or fetus. And nobody waits until they are in the last trimester and then decides to have an abortion without a physical reason. The idea that people do or would is just another scare tactic by the right wing media. And we must look at what is best for women as a whole and that is choice. The zygote’s rights are only equal to whatever rights a woman chooses to give to it because it is completely dependent upon a woman’s body, blood, nutrition, organs, ie. lungs and heart, etc. etc. A birthed baby needs an adult’s care but it does not need to live inside another’s body and take from it. If a woman is not getting enough to eat when pregnant or does not have enough vitamins and minerals, the fetus takes what there is and depletes the woman of her essential needs. I also noticed that you stated in a previous post that a baby needs it’s mother to take care of it, right after you spoke about how it is both mother’s and father’s responsibility. A Freudian slip I would say. And in truth, the burden of care does primarily fall to the mother and if she wants to give the best nutrition by nursing, it complicates her life greatly if she must work. Now when a woman chooses to get pregnant or to continue an unplanned pregnancy because she is in a good place in her life to have a child and very much wants to be a mother, she well may be able to lighten these burdens if she is financially stable as well as emotionally stable and she may be overjoyed…And therefore confer all the rights she wishes upon a developing pregnancy. So, in other words, just like no one should be able to force a woman to remain pregnant before the point of viability (5-6 months by which time the vast majority of women will have had time and opportunity to choose to abort) or afterwards in the event of medical reasons, it is equally true that no one has the right to force a woman to have an abortion either. It must be entirely up to the woman, who will confer with whom she wishes….doctor, partner, minister, God, or no one.
As for the gender issue, I just do not understand why you think that matters so much…A zygote or embryo or fetus is no more or less important because it is one sex or the other…Or neither sex. By the way, did you know that both xy and xx zygotes begin in a female state and it is not until the hormones go to work that the male sexual organs develop. It is because of the variations of the effect of these hormones that some people end up homosexual. Anyway, so much for woman being formed out of man’s rib…It is really the other way around.
Zygotes cannot be witnesses as they do not have brains or consciousness. They also do not have a fundamental right to be conceived. They just happened to be. But there was no requirement that this man and this woman had to come together and have sex at exactly the right time without birth control, or with birth control that would fail, in spite of outdated Catholic teachings. Anyway, if women all wore chastity belts and became nuns and denied men (who I guess would be forced to have sex only with each other) then these zygotes would not be spontaneously conceived. In other words, their existence is not a given and thus their taking over a woman’s body and risking her health and life is not a given or right either. Otherwise we would be criminalizing women having periods and not trying to always be pregnant and criminalizing male masturbation because those sperm and those eggs would have a given right to match up and begin the process of developing into a baby. No, it is only when the process has been allowed to continue to the point of viability…when there is an actual cognizant baby that can live independently outside another body, that the baby has rights.
As for this theoretical killing of pregnant endangered species you are still trying to use as somehow an argument against abortion, I have to say that you are continuing to not make any sense. When have I ever discussed killing a pregnant being of any kind? Human or animal? I never did and certainly would not indicate that is okay. Only you have talked about killing a pregnant animal, ie. a pregnant whale….Are you implying that I think fully developed animals are just clumps of cells? Because I don’t….And why would I support aborting the zygote of a pregnant whale if the mother whale does not want or need an abortion? If the pregnancy were going to kill her or destroy her health, then I would want to protect her, yes but giving her a necessary abortion. Again you seem to be very very confused in your thinking on this and in your attempts to make an analogy that simply does not work.
Dear My Brain to Yours readers, I try to remember three main points when dialoging with refuters.
First, I doubt the Holy Spirit indwells most of the people who refute God's perspective. Since this is highly probable, unsaved minds are depraved minds. We have the deception of babies in the womb NOT being life because the mother carrying the child has NO indwelling Life. THAT IS THE PRIMARY ISSUE. Meaning it takes a Christ-as-Life view of new life to inspire born-again authentic indwelt believers.
Secondly, you can’t reform a depraved mind, no matter how much science the presenter uses to convince otherwise. As the Word says, unsaved people are stupid & have darkened minds. Dark minds cannot understand Jesus’s mind without being possessed by Jesus. My thinking is never to debate stupid people. When they want to debate, I quickly move them to explore the “how” to house the mind of Christ. Without this, discussions quickly implode into fruitless discussions. Only Jesus in us has a sound mind. Any discussions outside of this turn up futile.
Third, my view on abortion is not earthly in any sense. In Jeremiah, God makes it clear He knew Jeremiah BEFORE he was conceived! That is the root truth.
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born, I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)
Therefore, proving abortion is wrong via science is not only fruitless, but it isn’t the organic Truth. Using science to prove life is lacking LIFE. Satan knows this Truth! Satan understands God puts pre-chosen life in the wombs of women. In this, he (Satan) motivates people, saved or not, to fight and quarrel over mindless reasoning. As I have been told many times, my views on life in the womb will never be accepted by humanity. Each time I say -Of course, they won’t; they are depraved as God’s greatest enemy. However, in this case, Satan is more in tune with Truth than the depraved minds that covertly follow him. -Dr. Phinney
Hi Jim,
I think you meant that in your view a necessary (not unnecessary…typo on your part I think) abortion is when the life of the mother is at risk or in cases of, “forced,” rape where the choice was not optional. While I appreciate you concern for the life of the mother, what about her health? She could end up with serious physical health concerns, sometimes reproductive health, issues and/or sometimes emotional health concerns. These matters can deeply negatively affect her life as well as potentially a child’s regarding care, mental health, physical health, financial well being, etc. or she may end up not ever being able to have a viable child if not allowed to abort an ongoing dangerous pregnancy. And why do you speak of, “rare,” medical conditions? Medical complications with pregnancy and childbirth are not rare, Jim…What makes you think they are? To start with, 1 out of 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage which is a risky complication in and of itself, especially the further along the pregnancy, due to the danger of bleeding out. And yet, doctors and hospitals in states that have banned most abortions are afraid to give treatment for these miscarriages (Ordinarily a D and C or a Dilatation and Cutterege which safely cleans out tissue and blood clots) risking hemorrhaging and sepsis (potentially fatal blood infections). Women are also being neglected when they are not necessarily miscarrying yet but it is known the fetus has died or her water has broken too early but there is still a heartbeat (just a couple of examples) and the medical community waits for the women to go into septic shock/begin dying before they will abort out of fear of legal trouble, even though such a fetus cannot possibly be born alive! This is what happens when medical decisions are not left up to the medical experts and the patients, and instead are made by ignorant legislators trying to control other people and things they do not understand.
Additionally, why are you using the false term, “forced,” rape? All rape is forced! That is part of the very definition of rape! This idea that there is some kind of, “unforced,” rape is a language manipulation begun by an ignorant politician and picked up on by right wing media to try to downplay rape and pretend it is not real, and to imply that women over claim rape. In fact, the opposite is true. The vast majority of rapes are not reported because women know how we will be treated by police, the courts and society…with doubt and shame and blame. And because these rapes are often committed by abusive controlling and even violent partners that women cannot get away from…because they cannot afford to or are afraid for other children and/or because the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when she tries to leave it…As well as when a partner like this learns she is pregnant…due to jealousy and whatever other issues make these people abusive….Then Sometimes she needs to obtain an abortion to make herself safer. And what you are really suggesting is that women are in complete control of whether they become pregnant or not throughout their lives which is ridiculous of course unless they do not have normal relationships (ie. Are nuns and never get sexually assaulted or simply never have an intimate relationship in their entire lives) because love and intimacy between human beings includes sexual relations and not just 2 or 3 times throughout a marriage or relationship to try to have a child. The vast majority of men are not interested in such a monk like existence. It is not realistic. And as mentioned at some point before, birth control is not completely dependable or in some cases , safe to stay on long term or safe for some women to use at all. Additionally this puts all the onus on women to have all the responsibility for birth control when let’s face it, men generally push for and want sex the most. Women mostly just want to be loved. And as I have mentioned before, some men refuse to use birth control or stealthily remove it. And I hope you don’t think married women don’t want or need abortions because that is just not the case. Being married does not mean women want to have 8 and 12 children… Too expensive, too much work for mostly working women, too much wear and tear on the body…But husbands and wives do still want to remain physically intimate even when not wanting more children, or getting to the age when birth defects are more likely (not caused by the devil…just aging eggs) and it’s too hard on the body or they are not ready when younger and trying to work and attend school, etc. The woman could even end up on bed rest for months (It is not uncommon to get life threatening blood clots) while trying to do these other things or care for other children. The woman is the one who suffers the most if the child has a fatal fetal anomaly and is forced to carry to term a fetus that is going to die within hours or days of birth and possibly suffer doing so. Or die in utero and endanger her own health. You see, it is always the woman who pays the price, physically, career wise, financially, emotionally, in all ways…And I hope you don’t think that young immature girls and teenagers should be forced to become mothers as punishment for being young and immature! And no, girls and women do not use abortion as their birth control plan…That’s just silly…Another made up right wing media manipulation…Of course there are always exceptions in the world but again I hope you don’t think these are the women you desperately want to become mothers and that you want to punish and control all other girls and women due to these few who are likely to have back alley abortions anyway…and likely die…woman and fetus…But women do need the option for abortion when birth control fails or they are forced into sex. Again, please don’t offer up adoption as a forced option…It is too emotionally gut wrenching once a child has actually developed and been carried to full term and been born and it negatively affects the adopted babies for life as they feel abandoned…It is impossible to get past that… I am familiar with many of these situations…So, your fantasy a few months ago that one these babies might cure cancer is far more likely to end up in the nightmare of dysfunction, drug addiction, poverty, neglect, trauma, etc. Additionally, such speculation could be made about any egg or sperm. So again I ask, do you insist on forcing women to always be pregnant and use all their eggs? And would you criminalize men’s masturbation? So that no sperm goes wasted and unmatched up with an egg?
Because gender is irrelevant to all of this If your argument is one of potential life. Because the egg and sperm are potential life as is the zygote. But only potential life…As so many things in all three cases have to happen and go right for a full term healthy baby to actually grow and be born and for all to go well for mother and child.
Gender of a zygote is also irrelevant in light of how complicated women’s lives and health and and pregnancy and childbirth are. A woman needs to have control over her life and health without interference…Only support for what are ultimately her decisions. The very fact you have referred to pregnancy as an, “inconvenience,” shows your utter lack of awareness. Men need to accept that they cannot comprehend the personal experiences and effects of pregnancy, childhood and motherhood and all the vulnerabilities that accompany these experiences.
And thus it must be a decision made between the woman/girl, her doctor and anyone else that she alone chooses to include, whether that be a partner or God or both. Period.
Let’s wait for another day to continue the conversation…when our heads are fresh and I don’t have to be up bright and early, okay?
I already did…And you have ignored my questions.
Ask again and I shall answer.
What are you even talking about? When a man says, STOP,” about sex? I never addressed that at all but of course a woman should stop too if a man says to stop. Or When a man says, “STOP,” about an abortion? That is up to the woman of course because the pregnancy and childbirth only affect her body and affect her life much more often to a much greater extent so yes, she must have control over the situation.
I notice you never respond to the issues of women’s lives and health and safety…Very telling.
If you have a specific question I’d be more than happy to answer it.
I have asked you a number of specific questions to which you have yet to respond.
One question at a time. I cannot answer an exhaustive paragraph. Please formulate a one sentence question and I will answer, lest we get side tracked. Fair enough?
Ask away.
Perhaps you did not read this post so I have copied it for you:
The mother’s health and life, human or animal matters more than an undeveloped unaware zygote, embryo, fetus…Her life, her physical health, reproductive health, financial health and emotional health….when a choice needs to be made…You don’t get to choose for women and girls to lose their lives or health in order to save undeveloped clumps of cells…Only the woman or girl in consultation with her doctor and anyone else she so chooses gets to make that choice. As it stands now, hospitals and doctors in some states are risking women’s and girls’ lives for non viable fetuses because of their own fear of getting in trouble…It is outrageous. It is not for you to make this choice. Why do you not care about women and girls? Only undeveloped unaware clumps of cells? Why not just force girls to get pregnant every month they are not pregnant so their body doesn’t expel the life of the egg? Why not criminalize men’s masturbating? After all those sperm are potentially part of new life? Why do you have such disregard for women and girls? What if your daughter’s life or health were in danger? Would you sacrifice them for a few cells? If my daughter or DIL or any other beloved young woman in my life lost their life or health or reproductive ability because people such as yourself helped push laws through preventing them from making their own decisions and taking care of their own health, I would frankly consider that to be unconscionable! Why such need for control over women? Why such a lack of compassion? Women are not mere incubators…This is not the Handmaid’s Tale…At least I and most women hope not. Between 60 and 70% of all Americans support abortion rights and yet you say you would or will try to deny and prevent these rights and at the same time say you don’t want to foist your religious beliefs on others. But oh yes you do…You most certainly do.
And we have already talked about the fact that not all zygotes/embryos/fetuses are clearly male or female and even if so, it does not change the discussion in the least. The woman is female but it’s okay with you if she suffers and/or dies….As a man you really have no moral say in this matter beyond what input any woman chooses to give any individual men in her life. That is the way it has to be in order to protect women from uncaring misogynistic men. I notice men have no objection to health insurance paying for viagra!